What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Tasmania specific bushwalking discussion.
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Tasmania specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 6:29 pm

Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves? Why do they have to broadcast to the world “look at me, I went on a bushwalk! How awesome am I!” Or maybe without the bragging element they probably wouldn’t feel the need to go on a walk anyway.


Yessssss

And the gpx sharing thing is just as bad. A big part of the adventure is figuring the route out for yourself. And if you screw it up or get lost in scrub then simply don't go that way on your next attempt.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby north-north-west » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 6:50 pm

ILUVSWTAS wrote:
Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves? Why do they have to broadcast to the world “look at me, I went on a bushwalk! How awesome am I!” Or maybe without the bragging element they probably wouldn’t feel the need to go on a walk anyway.


Yessssss

And the gpx sharing thing is just as bad. A big part of the adventure is figuring the route out for yourself. And if you screw it up or get lost in scrub then simply don't go that way on your next attempt.


It's somehow comforting to know that there are still a few purists left in this world.
If we could figure it out with paper maps and trial and error, why can't following generations?
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby icefest » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 6:52 pm

ILUVSWTAS wrote:
Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves? Why do they have to broadcast to the world “look at me, I went on a bushwalk! How awesome am I!” Or maybe without the bragging element they probably wouldn’t feel the need to go on a walk anyway.


Yessssss

And the gpx sharing thing is just as bad. A big part of the adventure is figuring the route out for yourself. And if you screw it up or get lost in scrub then simply don't go that way on your next attempt.


Where do you draw the line?
Are the chapman guides too far? Is publishing the list of the Abels too far? Is telling people about tramontane too far? Is making topomaps easily accessible too far? Should we stop updating topomaps as walking routes are moved and updated? Should we stop maintaining roads to places like farmhouse creek? Do we make more reference areas/exclusion zones?

The fine line between conservancy, secrecy and social enjoyment is a fine one to tread and it's hard to make people value something that is unknown.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 7:04 pm

north-north-west wrote:If we could figure it out with paper maps and trial and error, why can't following generations?



The millennial I want it all and I want it now mentality. :cry:
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby north-north-west » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 7:15 pm

icefest wrote:
ILUVSWTAS wrote:
Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves? Why do they have to broadcast to the world “look at me, I went on a bushwalk! How awesome am I!” Or maybe without the bragging element they probably wouldn’t feel the need to go on a walk anyway.


Yessssss

And the gpx sharing thing is just as bad. A big part of the adventure is figuring the route out for yourself. And if you screw it up or get lost in scrub then simply don't go that way on your next attempt.


Where do you draw the line?
Are the chapman guides too far? Is publishing the list of the Abels too far? Is telling people about tramontane too far? Is making topomaps easily accessible too far? Should we stop updating topomaps as walking routes are moved and updated? Should we stop maintaining roads to places like farmhouse creek? Do we make more reference areas/exclusion zones?

The fine line between conservancy, secrecy and social enjoyment is a fine one to tread and it's hard to make people value something that is unknown.


There are no easy answers. Possibly no satisfactory answers. All we can do is each decide for ourselves what information we pass on, how, and to whom. And keep pushing for more and better protection at government levels.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby EGM » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 7:18 pm

Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves? Why do they have to broadcast to the world “look at me, I went on a bushwalk! How awesome am I!” Or maybe without the bragging element they probably wouldn’t feel the need to go on a walk anyway.


Why do people release music and perform in front of crowds instead of just singing to themself?
Many of us enjoy watching the videos as entertainment and thankfully some people enjoy making videos. it's really no different to watching a documentary or reality tv.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Tortoise » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 7:34 pm

Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves? Why do they have to broadcast to the world “look at me, I went on a bushwalk! How awesome am I!” Or maybe without the bragging element they probably wouldn’t feel the need to go on a walk anyway.

That's a whole lot of assumptions, Tazz.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but how do you know their motivation?! Maybe there are people out there who want to brag. Maybe they're the people who flood to take selfies in dangerous places? I don't know. But I sure don't believe that's any of the few passionate, experienced walkers I've followed.

I, among many others I know, have enjoyed B & X's videos, and miss them. I appreciate the time and effort it took to put them together. I haven't watched them all, but saw none with content I had a problem with. I enjoy reading & hearing about other people's experiences of walks I've done and walks I want to do. Video adds a great dimension. Next best thing to being there.

When I'm planning a walk, I like to get as much info as I can about it. I've always done that. I'm a visual person. I love seeing photos and videos if I can. And if I can avoid an unnecessary 3 hour scrub-bash somewhere, I'm keen to hear about that too.

Some of my friends can no longer climb mountains. They love seeing videos of people climbing mountains they love.

Other friends have never been able to tackle big walks, for a variety of reasons. They love seeing photos and videos of places they'll never get to.

Another friend is getting into bushwalking in her 50s. She says that B & X's videos help her know what walks are unrealistic for her to consider.

I've met lots of people who say they got into Abel-climbing because of the Abels books. I've never met any who say they got into it through watching people's videos.

Thanks, B & X, for all your hard work, and the enjoyment and info it gave me. If you end up making videos again for a private group, I want to be part of it. As do a bunch of my friends.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Tortoise » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 7:47 pm

ILUVSWTAS wrote: A big part of the adventure is figuring the route out for yourself. And if you screw it up or get lost in scrub then simply don't go that way on your next attempt.

Best speak for yourself, ILUV. I study maps, aerial photos etc. I plan routes. But I prefer my adventures to have less scoparia, horizontal et al, if it's unnecessary. Before the internet existed, I would talk with people who had done an off-track route I was interested in, if I could. I still ask people about reliability of water sources, how thick was the scrub on the approach they took etc. I call it research. It increases my enjoyment and actually reduces my chances of injury, dehydration, exhaustion, and of needing a rescue. I think that is a good thing.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 8:38 pm

Gosh really? Do you read the last page of a book first too? :lol:
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Tortoise » Fri 03 Dec, 2021 8:43 pm

ILUVSWTAS wrote:Gosh really? Do you read the last page of a book first too?

I often do!!! Especially mysteries. :D
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby matagi » Sat 04 Dec, 2021 7:25 am

Tortoise wrote:
ILUVSWTAS wrote:Gosh really? Do you read the last page of a book first too?

I often do!!! Especially mysteries. :D

Glad I'm not the only one who does that. :D
This makes me the first man to climb Mount Everest backwards, without oxygen...or even a jumper.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Sat 04 Dec, 2021 8:03 am

Good grief.... I don't know where to begin!!

I do have the name of a very good psychologist I can give you though?
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Tortoise » Sat 04 Dec, 2021 8:25 am

There you go, ILUV. Turns out yours isn't the only perspective. :wink:

Oh, and mystery books aside, there's a huge difference between a mountain-leaper and a tortoise. Our love of wild places in general, and mountains in particular, may be similar. But our bodies and capacity are not. I've learnt how to maximise my chances of reaching places I want to visit. Some people may think I should stay on tracks. They are entitled to their opinion.

I know it's very tricky to know where the line should be drawn, as Icefest pointed out. I've always believed we have a responsibility to choose walks we're capable of doing, not just going blindly for anything. So I'll never make the acquaintance of the Prince of Wales Range, for example. But I've pushed my boundaries, step by step, with the right company, and with as many ducks lined up as possible. And I've been thrilled at the result.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Nuts » Sat 04 Dec, 2021 8:38 am

A closed group is a great idea. Responsibilities minimised, rights protected.
Respect Wilderness!
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Warin » Sun 05 Dec, 2021 1:44 pm

Swings and roundabouts.

I like this guys explanation as to why he does his videos - he enjoys looking back at them .. it is tip No 10 at 16:40 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4VGF43A358 (no Affiliation etc).

Not entering into 'you shouldn't do that' ... prefer the NZ outlook - the participant needs to take responsibility for their actions and there consequences, not place any blame elsewhere.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby headwerkn » Mon 06 Dec, 2021 11:23 pm

Apologies for the delay in responding, been very busy as the year from hell hurtles towards a close. Considered responses take time.

doogs wrote:I do think that the changes of the direction of governance within the Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife service has played a part in how this has unfolded... I'm certainly very cynical about the direction Jason Jacobi is taking Parks, whether it's him steering the ship or directives from above.


We've actually found Jason very good to engage with. Not only is he the only public servant in recent times to do me the decency of actually responding to RFIs by picking up the phone and calling in person (rather than simply getting a subordinate to email back the standard form letter filled with meaningless faff) but he's also made good on his promise to keep in touch, be available to answer further queries and concerns and generally been open and candid (as much as he can anyway) on current issues. 

I'm not going to say we're in support of every single little thing PWS is doing at present, but then again we're not privvy to whatever internal machinations are going on nor possess the skills/experience to manage half the state's land mass for the wide range of (often diametrically opposed) user groups ;-)

Which brings up a point I dare say often gets lost here. As much as we like to believe we serious, independent local bushwalkers are the beating heart of our parks and reserves usage, we're likely a very small minority of the overall audience PWS have to (by Charter) cater for. We likely represent an even smaller source of revenue for them, which rightly or wrongly, does affect where money gets spent. Something to keep in mind.

doogs wrote:An appropriate 'content creator' policy should be in place, enforced, and hopefully faith in the system can be restored.


Agreed wholeheartedly. As discussed earlier it's unlikely to be a priority of PWS any time soon. But if a bunch of likeminded individuals were to, say, draft a sensible submission and present it to them as a well developed starting point, it likely would expediate the process. Hint hint, nudge nudge... ;-)

doogs wrote:It's really hard to see anything that we do as non-egotistic*. The whole idea of peak bagging, such as The Abels, is outlandishly egotistical**.


Ok, my apologies in advance: the following isn't intended as a personal attack, rather addressing this particular notion/idea you've mentioned. Which has been made a few times before and, honestly, is an complete utter load of horse manure. So forgive me, I'm gonna be blunt. Again, not directed at you specifically...

Yeah, if you want to split infinitives, one could say anything we do as individuals to serve ourselves is "selfish" and anything we do to satisfy our sense of self worth is "egotistical". However I'd suggest (strongly) that the majority of sensible people consider both concepts as such only when to some level of detriment of other entities, be them human, natural or whatever. 

Walking up the pad up to the summit because you 'simply want to' isn't selfish. Walking up the pad whilst braiding it to avoid the muddy sections, unduly breaking nearby vegetation, dropping litter and carrying on like a pork chop whilst blasting dubstep out of your portable bluetooth speaker at the summit is, however. It both damages the environment itself and lessens the experience for those following. Anyway, I'm fairly confident though that we all kinda get this, yeah? ;-)

The notion that somehow a person's worth, value or right to our wilderness can be determined or prejudged on their real or perceived motivations is completely inane, utterly indefensible and honestly pretty darn offensive too. Dare I say even egotistical? Maybe. Definitely arrogant.

By all means judge a person's conduct and manner, sure. Maybe even their skills and abilities if you must, but only from a point of genuine concern for their safety and well-being. But not their reasons. As this thread has rather proved, you likely have no idea, judging from afar. But even if you did, it's really none of your business. 

We all tend to naturally err towards a niche or areas of interest within a given subject. Bushwalking, like many pastimes, is a broad church. I know very few bushwalkers who are simply interested in just "bushwalking" for bushwalking's sake. They all have their specific motivations, their areas of interest. Whether your thing is peaks, waterfalls, canyons, rivers/rafting, trail running, rock climbing, photography/videography (for recreation, or commercial gain), fishing, fungi, botany, bush tucker, entomology, history, geology, cultural learning, basket weaving while your hubby collects lichen samples (!) or any combination thereof... it just doesn't matter. If you're out enjoying the wilderness, it's A Good Thing. Be happy for them. Far better than sitting on the couch. And if you're conducting yourself in a safe and respectful manner to both your fellow walker and the environment, then there is no criticism to be made.

Yes, certain folk consider peak bagging shallow or frivolous. Agreed, doing something merely to tick off a list for "bragging rights" is indeed shallow and frivolous. I don't know, maybe some people out there have that mindset. Of all the fellow Abelists and other keen peak-baggers/mountaineers we've come to know over the years (quite a large number, as you'd expect) however, a sum total of zero are motivated by such things. As Louise eloquently put it, there are no prizes for completing The Abels other than your own sense of fulfilment. And perhaps the approving nod from those who respect the great time, skill, commitment and perseverance involved. Same for any other list.

For us, The Abels is simply a guide and a focus - a starting point to do things out bush. Motivation to seek out different places to explore in our wonderful state. Places often unexplored and ignored by most. I can't really have seen either of us ever wanting to go explore Recondite Knob otherwise ;-) Over time it has enabled both of us to develop the skills and experience necessary to become competent and confident bushwalkers, and a better understanding and appreciation of our complex and unique subalpine/alpine ecosystems. It's also been an effective conduit into a wonderful community of likeminded souls, where strangers soon become fast friends over this shared passion.

For me personally, climbing mountains is a source of immense physical and mental well-being and, dare I say, significant spiritual benefit too. I'm hardly alone in this opinion, I'm sure. For the longest time most of my bushwalking and hiking endeavours revolved around fishing (as did our family's camping adventures when I was a child). The strong connection with mountains was borne from of getting into trail running several years ago. What started as simply seeking interesting physical challenges to improve my health and fitness slowly but surely turned into something much more fulfilling for my state of mind and being. I won't bore you or embarrass myself trying to articulate the spiritual aspect; suffice to say, I'm a happier, better person at elevation. Actually I think it a very inherent mammalian response to seek the high ground - evolution rules - but maybe I've just convinced myself the air smells sweeter above 1000m whilst appreciating a good view ;-)

I'm also exceptionally lucky to have a partner who exactly feels the same way. 

So yes, a book is merely a book and lists are trivial. It is what you do with them that matters. We see lots of people doing wonderful things and having fun in part thanks to The Abels, the HWC Peak Bagger List and so forth motivating them. If that's not your bag, then fine, that's ok, but you don't get to judge, criticise or attempt to place yourself above others just because your motivations aren't theirs and vice versa. If you do, don't expect to be taken seriously. No one needs to justify their "why". 

doogs wrote:Making a film to improve on something that is already available because you think you can better it is egotistic too. I am not pointing this out to be a negative trait... It is clearly something that has driven you to make your 'content' and it is something that you were/are passionate about as that is reflected in the quality and time put in to producing them. They are honestly good films.


Cheers for the kind comment. The short answer to this simply that access and other information changes over time (floods, fires, gates, track conditions etc.) so you help to keep it up to date for the next person.

The longer answer is that we were already keeping a personal diary/blog, taking photos and making short films for our own memories, and to share them with family and friends. Many of our friends bushwalk and would ask for advice. Plus we were taking information from other sources online to help guide our trips, and - noting in particular that road damage caused by the 2016 floods had changed access to several mountains we'd climbed - felt it was only right to 'update the record' to help anyone else. You take, you give back. Basic good citizenry. Eventually it just made sense to make it public and accessible.

Why put so much effort into videos? Well I enjoy videography as much as I enjoy photography, and I don't do things I care about in a half a--ed manner. Neither of us will put our name to something that isn't as good as we can possibly make it. Simple as that! 

Obviously it's a nice feeling when someone appreciates your 'art' or creative output. Won't deny that at all. Getting an email or message along the lines of "hey, loved the vid, so looking forward to doing this walk next month!" or "the tip about that part of the track was super helpful, we had a great day out - thanks!" absolutely brightens your day, and gives you that extra motivation to finish off a project when LumaFusion is choking halfway through a 4K render at 11pm on a school night ;-)

But reducing it to merely seeking out an ego boost is rather missing the point, nor giving us or any other blogger/videomaker for that matter their due credit. We wanted to pay it forward and give back to a community that had given so much to us. That's basically it. We didn't do it for infamy - pretty embarrassing to be recognised on-track, honestly, but a great way to break the ice with random strangers - and we sure as hell didn't do it to make money. 

Nuts wrote:I gather this is the LNT guideline mentioned:
https://www.theoutbound.com/brandon-dew ... -media-age
And TP&W Commercial Guidelines:
https://parks.tas.gov.au/Documents/Comm ... elines.pdf
(Here's a good effort for photogs: https://nrmsouth.org.au/wp-content/uplo ... OUTPUT.pdf )


It is, along with the numerous variants of it. PWS were definitely keen on the "portray positive LNT" aspect. Having proofread not one but two B.Ed's worth of assignments in the past 20 years, I understand the concept of teaching via modelling good behaviour pretty well now ;-) Sounds bleedingly obvious to sensible human beings, but as I'm ever reminded by the presence of trackside toilet paper and turds (!) there's always people who could benefit from a little more learning. 

north-north-west wrote:You can control your content, and you do that. You do a reasonable job of it, with plenty of emphasis on safety. What you can't control is the way people absorb and use that content... Frankly, that's not a responsibility I would be comfortable bearing.


True, but if we constantly pander to the bottom percentile of those who won't take responsibility for their own existence, we'd have 6m perimeter fences around every bit of wilderness and no cars, wouldn't we? 

I've already discussed legal responsibilities. The NZ Mountain Safety Council videos were an inspiration for our own, but we realised pretty quickly that we had no place producing films of that ilk. Neither of us are qualified to provide such info - that's Parks' role. Ultimately we simply shared our experiences and thoughts. Those were worth exactly what anyone paid for them eg. nothing and people were free to glean from them what they will, based on whatever qualification they thought we had. Likely just having "done the walk, and not died along the way" ;-).

From a moral/ethical standpoint we assumed little and considered our main 'target audience' very much beginners and likely unfamiliar with Tasmanian conditions eg. visiting walkers and tourists. Initially I was hesitant to lay on the safety/weather message so much - it sounded so preachy - but was encouraged by all and sundry to not hold back. After a string of easily-avoidable rescues in the news, I was soon convinced to go with it.

I can appreciate that some people mightn't be comfortable with that themselves, that's fine, your business. We were perfectly happy with it. Actually, the thought that if it convinced just one person to alter their plans for the better, and saved a rescue or worse, then all the effort was worthwhile. Ok, maybe that's a little egotistical. Then again, we've had more than a few messages along the lines of "Whoa, that looks more intense than I was expecting! I need to work up to this..." so just maybe the potential was there.

ILUVSWTAS wrote:And the gpx sharing thing is just as bad. A big part of the adventure is figuring the route out for yourself.


True, though a GPX file is hardly a magic carpet ride. Especially up mountains or on a steep slope in bad weather, as anyone who understands the limitations of the technology will tell you. It's a tool, like a map, compass and pre-planning your route to help improve your chances of a successful trip. Some of us do need to be back at work Monday morning, after all ;-)

If you think about it properly, "figuring out the route for yourself" is, at best, an advanced technique for very experienced bushwalkers seeking to challenge themselves for whatever personal motivation. Or at worst, a violation of a key LNT principle, and the rules Parks and every walking club preach at every opportunity. Every rescued bushwalker newsflash is followed with frothy howls of "What were they doing out there??! Didn't they do their research?!?"  

We shouldn't be encouraging inexperienced bushwalkers to just "figure it out themselves" at all. That actually kills people , and likely causes a million more close calls and overall bad days out. How much preparation someone undertakes is their business, but I would suggest that for most bushwalkers, there's no such thing as too much. 

If you want to retain an element of surprise and not research things to the nth degree, then do so. Take what knowledge you need and no more. Just because a blog exists doesn't mean you have to read it. Just because of a video exists doesn't mean you have to watch it.  Its existence isn't taking anything away from your potential experience. I've never understood why this criticism exists.

Tortoise wrote:I call it research.  It increases my enjoyment and actually reduces my chances of injury, dehydration, exhaustion, and of needing a rescue. I think that is a good thing.


Pretty sure we all do!

north-north-west wrote:It's somehow comforting to know that there are still a few purists left in this world.  If we could figure it out with paper maps and trial and error, why can't following generations?


With respect NNW, this is a really elitist and ultimately unhelpful/damaging statement, that smacks of old guys bemoaning the newer generation for having better gear and an easier time at it than they did in the youth ;-) The argument has been made for every generation past. Technology marches on. I'm sure the bushmen and women of the 1920s and 1930s reckoned that the young'ns of the 1970s had it easy in comparison with all their 'newfangled' gear. Likewise, I'm sure in 40 years time we'll all sigh at the sights of people buzzing around on personal transportation drones, and reminisce of a simpler time when you had to actually use your own legs to get up a mountain.

Anyway, true purists enter the bush stark naked, first seeking out a pointed stone with which to make subsequent tools and spear dinner, then navigate using the stars and which side of the tree the moss grows ;-) /jk

To be serious, what matters isn't so much being able to use a map and compass, but being able to actually navigate accurately and efficiently. Yes, there is a certain simple, romantic charm of a compass (I did orienteering as a teenager) but ~90% of the time GPS is going to be more accurate and more efficient. Yes, agree completely that too many people place too much faith in their GPSs. They are not foolproof by any stretch; accuracy is limited and reduced by many factors including weather and terrain, not to mention compounded by any accuracy issues in the data you might be using alongside it. And yes, battery life. Anyone with aspirations beyond the most basic of routes really should be comfortable using both as well as being able to read the terrain in front of them and make sensible route making decisions. All that comes with time and experience. But given that a fair majority of newcomers to bushwalking already have a rather capable GPS and Topo mapping device in their pockets with a gentler learning curve and more usable accuracy as a novice, no surprises guessing which one they'll err towards. 

Also, let's be blunt - navigating off 1:50,000 TasMaps is pretty terrible. Even my watch will give me legible 10m contours.

Tazz81 wrote:Maybe I’m old fashioned - but why can’t people just go on a walk, enjoy it and remember it themselves?


Because even in the 'olden days' people still kept diaries, made notes, drew routes, shot film and showed it to anyone who was interested. There once was this guy from Lithuania you might recall; he did slide shows of far off places most hadn't seen, and started the modern conservation movement in Tasmania...

The mediums have changed - the motivations haven't. Some people enjoy sharing, others don't. Again, just because it exists, doesn't mean to have to consume it if you don't want to.

Nuts wrote:A closed group is a great idea. Responsibilities minimised, rights protected.


We actually had no less than 30 requests to do this very thing, most people actually offering to pay! We weren't comfortable with that, because it would actually increase responsibility and expectation, while giving us no greater ability to know if those receiving the information were any better placed to use it appropriately. And it went against the original motivation of sharing the information in the first place.

icefest wrote:it's hard to make people value something that is unknown.


You, sir, win the internet for today.

Scottyk wrote:I think it just didn't end up paying.... If it was paying they would still be making it.


If we really wanted to make money we would have just made cat videos. Seriously, why put so much effort into such a niche, limited market if your primary motivation is making bank? Doesn't make any sense. 

We actually had this discussion almost every other week while working furiously to maintain a credible upload schedule ;-) It was a passion project and like all passions, it's at the mercy of time and things that actually pay the bills. Priorities have changed and the time needed no longer exists. I'm fairly sure you understand this yourself Scott. As a side note, thanks for the repair of the gaiters, they're still going strong. Very sad to hear you're giving it up, they're such a good product.

EGM wrote:Many of us enjoy watching the videos as entertainment and thankfully some people enjoy making videos. it's really no different to watching a documentary or reality tv.


So true. I've watched "14 Peaks" twice in the last week. I've never had and still have no desire to climb any 8,000er (Aoroki is my "Everest"... maybe one day) but by golly watching Nims and Co. inspires me regardless. As do random peeps sharing interesting stories and adventures on YouTube.

Tortoise wrote:Some of my friends can no longer climb mountains.  They love seeing videos of people climbing mountains they love. Other friends have never been able to tackle big walks, for a variety of reasons.  They love seeing photos and videos of places they'll never get to.


Such people made up a pretty significant chunk of our audience. For all the efforts to pass on useful knowledge to likeminded walkers, a lot of people were watching on simply for the visuals. 

Warin wrote:I like this guys explanation as to why he does his videos - he enjoys looking back at them


As perverse as watching yourself sounds, it is actually really true. Like I said earlier, part of the reason we started this whole thing was to capture our adventures for ourselves, to relive them again in the future. We're very fortunate to have the ability to go out on trips often 2-3 times a month; the side effect of having so many fresh and exciting experiences is that what you did 6-12 months ago soon disappears into the fog of memory. It's actually kinda cool to look back over what you did in the past year, and be reminded of all the little trials and tribulations you'd forgotten about. And in 30-40 years' time when we're old and decrepit, we can look back and grateful for the time when we had functional bodies and used them well ;-)

I think that's everything. Jeez what a long winded reply. Bravo if you read the lot. 

If there's one final point I can get across... what upsets me most about this whole 'thing' isn't that a bunch of people disapproved of our videos and blog, but that certain attitudes are bringing down the broader community. I know that every group has its over-opinionated voices and that written internet communication only magnifies the effect, but the result is really something quite ugly and unwelcoming to newcomers. Being passionate is fine - nay, encouraged - but it's no excuse for being rude. Articulate your point, don't yell down at people. 

You conserve by making people care. You make people care by making them feel welcome and part of the community. Let's not let our minor frustrations with the world get in the way of being nice to each other. 

See you out on the trails...
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Son of a Beach » Tue 07 Dec, 2021 7:34 am

Thanks, headwerkn, for taking the time to write such a comprehensive and considered response, while keeping it fairly civil in the face of some opposition. I appreciate how challenging this can be, as I have faced some very heated personal exchanges on this forum, myself in the past (usually due to my actions as a former moderator ;-) ).

I don't agree 100% with everything you wrote (my main points of disagreement would be the PWS section near the top of your post), but it's an excellent post in terms of genuine engagement. (I don't intend to elaborate on my disagreements, as I don't think it would be productive. That kind of discussion would be better in-person, than via text exchanges on any medium.)
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Nuts » Tue 07 Dec, 2021 8:59 am

It is good to see someone prepared to try to explain themselves out.
I too found the director responsive. I'm not sure he had read my email, but I did get a response.
He seems to think the weight of numbers a sole justification, like a politician.. I'm not sure it would matter the quality of concerns.

'It's hard to value something you don't know about'. Yes sure. The ball got rolling (from a mainland perspective) for the Franklin with a bumper sticker (that was a master-stroke). Then nightly news bulletins of the protests (I remember thinking that if all these people cared so much this must be something seriously worth saving). Then there was a photograph.. Just the one. Where has even that photo been necessary for any (already) designated reserve? The way I see it, in fact, a major threat is overuse. Which amateur bloggers promote.

I see people getting cranky and frustrated. Cumudgeons, idealists, elitists, likely they realise they already lost this debate (in very recent years).
Respect Wilderness!
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby north-north-west » Tue 07 Dec, 2021 11:18 am

Nuts,

Do you think you could pick a position and stick to it? You're constantly chopping and changing your pros and cons to the point it's downright dizzying.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Nuts » Tue 07 Dec, 2021 11:53 am

That's half the problem, social media is about pinning down people to their 'positions'.
On what in particular NNW?, what 'pros' are there? :)

I am tending towards thinking that, even if for a noble cause ie. good walks blogging v's bad blogging, it's not all then just gleaned for new info and added to the mill.

PS. I agree it's a good place (if not topic) to have the discussion. There was a similar topic on a facebook group recently.. It a day it almost seems historical, past time to contribute.. all that effort come and gone.. what's with that..?? And it's refreshing to see someone wordy with their ideas :)

I do think it's also past-time worth beating each other up on these topics, if that's what has been happening recently. There's a role for government, their current policies, linked to maximising numbers of visitors, could consider/contrive an absolute free-for-all, or even joining in, as mandated.

?
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Mountain Rocket » Sun 26 Dec, 2021 9:50 am

I'm clearly late to this topic but I for one thoroughly enjoyed their videos and the obvious effort and care they put into creating them. Sad to see bullying and vitriol brought it to an end (for now?). As members of this forum I'd say its safe to assume we all share a certain love the bush and wilderness and appreciate how differing interpretations of how to best care for those values can be contentious. At least this topic has provided an opportunity to discuss those issues in a civil and constructive manner.
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Re: What Happened to Bender and Xing?

Postby Champion_Munch » Sun 26 Dec, 2021 3:21 pm

Likewise, I'm sure in 40 years time we'll all sigh at the sights of people buzzing around on personal transportation drones, and reminisce of a simpler time when you had to actually use your own legs to get up a mountain.


I sure hope I never live to see that day. If that is the future, it's looking pretty bleak...
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