Horses and heritage

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sat 13 Jun, 2020 6:36 am

A word which can be used alongside heritage is legacy. I would also remind people of the legacy to bushwalkers from early mining, pioneer pastoralists and loggers. We have many tracks which are used today by us all. Some people may know track 107 which is an access track to the Bogong High Plains. This track originally started at Mt. Wills and went to Mt. Hotham and was numbered by the mines department as 107. The original track may have formed parts of the AAWT. Not all legacy is good though.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 15 Jun, 2020 12:17 pm

Phil Maguire has been the driving force behind Victorian actions to save feral horses. Until last weekend he was part of Rural Resistance
https://www.facebook.com/groups/585289412322451/

The amount of funds pouring into Rural Resistance is significant.
RR donations.png
Donations to Rural Resistance

If Mr Maguire loses his appeal he could be in dire financial straights.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-25/ ... s/12281380
“He estimates if he loses the court battle, he will have to pay more than $1 million in legal costs to the Government.”

It seems that he had a falling out with Rural Resistance and he has started another group Bundarrah.
https://www.bundarrah.com/2020/06/welco ... arrah.html
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby kymboy » Mon 15 Jun, 2020 2:46 pm

There’s some particularly nasty, racist posts on the Rural Resistance fb page about the asian australian Greens staffer who was charged with defacing the Cook statue in Sydney. Maybe I dont get out much but I haven’t seen the word gook used for a long time. It makes for some pretty disturbing reading.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 3:22 pm

Feral Horses in the Australian Alps
A Consultants Report
https://theaustralianalps.files.wordpre ... s-2020.pdf
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Tue 16 Jun, 2020 8:38 pm

John, thanks for posting that link. The evidence is very clear, but not, perhaps, to those who call for feral horses to stay.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 7:35 am

Lophophaps wrote:John, thanks for posting that link. The evidence is very clear, but not, perhaps, to those who call for feral horses to stay.

I read up on the cognitive bias mentioned earlier and it explains much. No amount of evidence will be enough to change their mind. The new blog spot for Maguire will be full of the same rubbish. He even has a photo of the so called brumbies he has saved and put on his property. As predicted, they are his own horses. I would think asking for donations and providing false or misleading information to encourage people to give you money would be a criminal offence. Now they are asking for more money and it seems Phil Maguire is back on FB. Even Peter Cochrane made mention of how dumb it was to take out the injunction and also indicated they have done in in NSW as well. Not heard anything else about that so it is really a bit of FB hearsay.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby rcaffin » Wed 17 Jun, 2020 6:42 pm

Feral Horses in the Australian Alps
A Consultants Report

I misread that as

Fecal Horses in the Australian Alps
A Consultants Report

Cheers
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Kickinghorse » Fri 19 Jun, 2020 10:11 pm

Not sure with all the comment contributed to this thread that I’ve not doubled up on this link. Rogers image of faecal horses are well represented.

https://www.smh.com.au/environment/cons ... 54rte.html
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Sat 27 Jun, 2020 12:47 pm

Eden-Monaro Federal by election.
Where do the candidates stand on the feral horses issue?
Here is summar5y from the Reclaim Kosci people
https://reclaimkosci.org.au/myths-v-fac ... scorecard/
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Sat 27 Jun, 2020 1:12 pm

Even the supposedly good responses are full of weasel words: what is a "humane control program"? And if shooting is not humane, then what are they proposing?
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Warin » Sun 28 Jun, 2020 10:29 am

Only one of them mentioned an essential fact: This is a state issue. All a federal member can do is lobby the state government, state pollies.
Would be better to ask about federal issues... snowy 2 for example.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Mon 13 Jul, 2020 3:07 pm

And now in court in NSW.....
Horses in the NSW Land and Environment Court


RK staff and volunteers were in "virtual court" last Thursday, spending a marathon seven hours monitoring proceedings as The Snowy Mountains Brumby Sustainability & Management Group Incorporated (SMBSMGI) challenged the State of New South Wales in the Land and Environment Court over the planned trap and removal (including rehoming) of some horses from important conservation areas of Kosciuszko National Park as part of the post-fire wildlife recovery measures.

SMBSMGI sought to prove that the planned trapping falls outside the auspices of the 2008 Kosciuszko National Park Horse Management Plan, which is the plan that still applies and that the activity (trapping and removal) required assessment of its environmental impact.

By the end of the day, we were no clearer to knowing whether the planned trapping of horses in northern Kosciuszko National park would be allowed to proceed or not.

The judgement is expected late this week
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Sat 12 Sep, 2020 12:37 pm

And here is a nice little piece from the Save Kosci people/
Corroboree frogs, chytrid fungus, horses and politicians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q847t3GUS0
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Warin » Sun 20 Sep, 2020 9:33 am

A piece on the NSW Deputy Premier (presently 'hard at work' while 'on metal health leave") ... includes KNP + horses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihoirTYqf2c
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Wed 11 Nov, 2020 12:22 pm

And the Save Kosci people have started up another E Petition.
Last round got us a parliamentary hearing.
Please follow the link so we get another go.
This time John Barrliaro is ina weaker position.

Second chance for petition to urge action against out-of-control horse numbers
A new NSW Parliament e-petition has been launched that will give Kosciuszko National Park supporters another chance to urge action on out-of-control feral horse numbers.

“The future of Kosciuszko National Park is under threat from unmanaged horse populations and a law that gives priority to horses ahead of its native wildlife”, Reclaim Kosci campaigner Candice Bartlett said.

“Since the last horse petition was presented to parliament in August 2019, the park remains without a horse management plan and the horse population in Kosciuszko National Park has continued to grow.”

The horse population estimated at about 20,000 was largely unaffected by the devastating summer bushfires. Only 300 horses have been removed in that time.

Independent state member for Wagga Wagga, Dr Joe McGirr, whose electorate takes in the area with the largest number of feral horses, the northern end of the national park, is sponsoring the petition.

“I’m willing to support the e-petition because it will highlight an important issue for my electorate and for Kosciuszko National Park that the NSW government is failing to resolve,” Dr McGirr said.

If the petition reaches 20,000 e-signatures it will automatically trigger debate in the NSW Legislative Assembly.

The previous petition signed by more than 12,000 people was voted down by government MPs in the State’s lower house last year despite the time-honoured Westminster tradition of allowing petitions from all constituents to be tabled and noted.

Led by the Member for Monaro, John Barilaro, the NSW coalition government used its numbers to block a move to have the petition noted.

“This was insulting and disrespectful,” said Ms Bartlett.

“The Parliamentary Library confirmed that since the mechanism for the automatic debate of petitions was introduced in 2019, this was the first time the house voted against the ‘noting’ of a petition. As an independent, Dr McGirr is to be commended for playing a role in helping to retore democratic traditions and conventions NSW Parliament inherited from Westminster.”

The e-petition system was recently introduced to allow constituents to make representations direct to the parliament. Any resident of NSW or visitor to Kosciuszko National Park can sign the e-petition.

View the petition at this link.
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/la/Pa ... 9GrpxUGQ==
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Ticklebelly » Fri 04 Dec, 2020 8:12 pm

I wonder if the concentration on a specific species leads to lots of emotion driven opinion. I am a member of a group doing our best to preserve a peri-urban Conservation Reserve near my home in Qld. Feral species of plants and animals are dealt with under the Biosecurity legislation in Qld. Thus, cats, deer, pigs, and once, horses (brumbies) are removed quickly by those whose responsibility it is to remove those species. Politicians do not get involved at any time.

I am happy to argue that the horse issue in the high country of NSW and Vic has re-election value to one side of state politics and that muddies the water, so to speak. Maybe the way around the constant debate is to revisit the NP legislation and make clear the intent and purpose of creating National Parks as the preservation for the benefit of all and not allow special interest groups to spoil the national asset preserved in National Parks.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Sat 05 Dec, 2020 6:04 am

Ticklebelly wrote:I wonder if the concentration on a specific species leads to lots of emotion driven opinion. I am a member of a group doing our best to preserve a peri-urban Conservation Reserve near my home in Qld. Feral species of plants and animals are dealt with under the Biosecurity legislation in Qld. Thus, cats, deer, pigs, and once, horses (brumbies) are removed quickly by those whose responsibility it is to remove those species. Politicians do not get involved at any time.

I am happy to argue that the horse issue in the high country of NSW and Vic has re-election value to one side of state politics and that muddies the water, so to speak. Maybe the way around the constant debate is to revisit the NP legislation and make clear the intent and purpose of creating National Parks as the preservation for the benefit of all and not allow special interest groups to spoil the national asset preserved in National Parks.


Legislation in Victoria is clear, NSW less clear but still there is an obligation to manage all feral species. The Vic legislation terms them as exotic flora and fauna and specifically states they are to be eradicated but then the caveat is 'if practicable'. There is no concentration specifically on horses when it comes to control. The problem is horses have been given a special place or special attention which is preventing authorities from implementing the same level of controls as it does for pigs, deer, goats, foxes and dogs. The other pests are being dealt with constantly but you don't get as much objection to that. It is OK to shoot a pig from a chopper but inhumane to shoot a horse. The emotional driven opinion is coming from people who believe horses are a higher being to the other animals and deserving special treatment. It has been a problem for many years and this type of person is a walking contradiction stuck in a cognitive bias which prevents them from seeing any reason. Deer have also enjoyed some level of protection over the years but that is changing. The National Party see it as an election issue for them as they are desperately trying to find something to keep them relevant.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Ticklebelly » Sat 12 Dec, 2020 11:48 am

Page 17 of today's Australian newspaper (12/12/2020) covers the story and the politics quite well. I reject the alliance's argument that brumbies have "Heritage" value. Any argument in that direction would have to concede that feral pigs, for example, also have the same level of Heritage value. To be consistent, the alliance would have to lobby of the preservation and continued presence of all the feral species in the NP.

From the perspective of a Bushwalking experience, I want to experience a country which is as pristine and natural as was 300 years ago.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Thu 17 Dec, 2020 12:19 pm

E Petition needs more signatures Now!

Dear Walkers
Please see message from Linda Groom, from Reclaim Kosci. https://reclaimkosci.org.au/

“We are running another petition, as we did in 2018/9, to tell the government that a delay of now nearly 3 years in producing a feral horse management plan is too long. But petitions now have a mandatory 3 month life and we are running out of time to reach our 20,000 signature target by the deadline of 13 January, so every bit of help is much appreciated. “

Thank you members who did participate before but they seem to be still requiring some votes. Your help would be appreciated.

The link is below.

The petition is here
https://reclaimkosci.org.au/action-long-term-plan/

Thanks
John
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Thu 17 Dec, 2020 12:28 pm

I would, but it says you have to be a NSW resident.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnw » Thu 17 Dec, 2020 10:13 pm

north-north-west wrote:I would, but it says you have to be a NSW resident.

Not sure about that if I'm reading it correctly:
"This petition of NSW residents and visitors to Kosciuszko National Park"
You could try submitting but just don't tick the "I am a resident of New South Wales" check box, which I assume is optional based on usual conventions.
The more of us the better :).
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 18 Dec, 2020 5:50 am

johnw wrote:
north-north-west wrote:I would, but it says you have to be a NSW resident.

Not sure about that if I'm reading it correctly:
"This petition of NSW residents and visitors to Kosciuszko National Park"
You could try submitting but just don't tick the "I am a resident of New South Wales" check box, which I assume is optional based on usual conventions.
The more of us the better :).

I tried but it only has provision for a NSW resident whom I guess also has to visit KNP.

In news from Victoria, the application for special leave to appeal to the High Court lodged against Parks Vic by Maguire has been withdrawn the day before it was to be heard. An agreement was reached for each party to pay their own costs. Parks Vic have put out a statement confirming this and updated information regarding horse management. A draft plan will be out for comment in March 2021 but PV have stated clearly its intention to continue ground shooting in selected areas but also passive trapping. All horses on the Bogong High Plains will be removed. A lone black stallion has been sighted in the Nelse area a number of times but there may be more horses which were not trapped earlier this year and running with another stallion. This is from unconfirmed reports. Anyone sighting horses in that area should report it to Parks at Mt. Beauty. I was told this black stallion was behaving in a threatening manner and that was from an experienced horse person.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby stry » Fri 18 Dec, 2020 6:35 am

That's excellent news about the horses on BHP, thanks Explora.

It would have been a doddle and very cheap to at least start on them during the BHP deer culls, but bureaucracy needs to run its course I suppose.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 18 Dec, 2020 5:14 pm

stry wrote:That's excellent news about the horses on BHP, thanks Explora.

It would have been a doddle and very cheap to at least start on them during the BHP deer culls, but bureaucracy needs to run its course I suppose.

I know many of the horse supporters already believe the fake news about horses being shot during deer culls but they only want to believe it because fits the narrative that has been constructed by those seeking to further their own anti Parks agenda. No horse on BHP has been shot as yet during any of the deer culls and that you can take to the bank. To think of it logically (which is something the bleeding hearts are incapable of doing), would someone really want to risk their job, superannuation and reputation to allow shooting of horses? A conspiracy of that nature is difficult to cover up. It would involve a great many people and one slip in the pub and the word gets out. Parks Vic spend so much effort trying not to offend anyone that it is almost inconceivable to think it would be involved in such a conspiracy. It would be a different thing entirely if the contract shooters took it upon themselves to shoot horses but again there would be need to be a conspiracy to cover it up. Parks Vic have been extremely patient through all of this and will continue in that vein even when provoked.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnw » Fri 18 Dec, 2020 9:15 pm

Xplora wrote:
johnw wrote:
north-north-west wrote:I would, but it says you have to be a NSW resident.

Not sure about that if I'm reading it correctly:
"This petition of NSW residents and visitors to Kosciuszko National Park"
You could try submitting but just don't tick the "I am a resident of New South Wales" check box, which I assume is optional based on usual conventions.
The more of us the better :).

I tried but it only has provision for a NSW resident whom I guess also has to visit KNP.

OK. That's disappointing, their phraseology is somewhat ambiguous.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Ticklebelly » Sun 20 Dec, 2020 4:39 pm

johnrs wrote:The previous petition signed by more than 12,000 people was voted down by government MPs in the State’s lower house last year despite the time-honoured Westminster tradition of allowing petitions from all constituents to be tabled and noted.

View the petition at this link.
https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/la/Pa ... 9GrpxUGQ==


I see that the previous petition was somewhat successful and like the idea of another. I have recent experience of using a petition to lodge objections with a local council against a proposed development. The objection was against the destruction of a high conservation value reserve and the wording of the objection referred to the the objectives of the council approved Town Plan. Local residents were successful, BTW.

The point to be made came from the details in the written Development Application rejection. The petition was counted as a single objection, despite having more than 250 signatures. Apparently, that is the rule. I suggest that as well as signing any petition, an email or letter to the minister concerned would increase the perception of the how widespread is the community feeling about feral animals in the NP. Maybe the organisers of the petition could also provide an address to which individual letters or emails could be sent.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Sun 20 Dec, 2020 9:22 pm

Unless there's a lot of signatures, petitions are not as effective as individual emails or letters. It's very easy to add a name to a petition, but much harder to write in your own words. Also, emails and letters trickling in over time saying the same thing have impact. I often write to the most senior public servant. In most jurisdictions there's a requirement for public servants to reply, and remedies if they do not. Ministers can and do ignore anything , with no remedies.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Mon 21 Dec, 2020 9:44 pm

You could write to your local MP. If they are any good, they will send your letter to the minister and there will be a very quick response because it is going to an MP.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Tue 22 Dec, 2020 5:57 am

Article in the SMH. Good thing is that the letters are, excepting those that simply attack Garrett, overwhelmingly in favour of removal.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/national-disgrace-garrett-calls-for-feral-horse-removal-to-save-kosciuszko-20201220-p56p2c.html
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Tue 22 Dec, 2020 5:59 am

davidmorr wrote:You could write to your local MP. If they are any good, they will send your letter to the minister and there will be a very quick response because it is going to an MP.

I assume you meant to say a quick response because it was coming from an MP. It that is what you meant then it is not so. Our local MP can wait up to 5 months for a response from a minister. I have had him ask questions on notice and that gets a quicker response. Maybe 2 months.
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