Horses and heritage

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Sat 09 May, 2020 9:53 am

Warin wrote:But not conservation of weeds, feral animals?

Would it not be better to conserve what was here when the white man first arrived? Maintaining the Aborigines maintenance of the bush?

Absolutely, and that is supposed to the goal apart from some heritage items.

However, successive governments have ducked the problem of feral horses, and limited funding for weed and feral animal control. Instead, they preferred the limited funding provided to NPWS to be spent on recreational items like polished wood and stainless steel bridges across Polblue Swamp, to replace a perfectly functional bridge made from a fallen tree. This bridge would have cost maybe $100,000 while the place is swimming in so much Scotch Broom that you cannot get off the tracks.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Sun 10 May, 2020 3:42 pm

'Except that the legislated purpose of national parks (in NSW at least) is conservation, not recreation." Not sure how I feel about this. Without knowing all the minutiae, surely a key objective of legistlation is appreciation of that conservation area, be it walking, paddling, caving, climbing? Nat Parks are referred to often when quoting tourism, visitor and contribution to the economy etc. Have I missed something?
All aside, a fortunate time to rid the parks of horses, tread down the sword.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Sun 10 May, 2020 3:52 pm

Heremeahappy1 wrote:'Except that the legislated purpose of national parks (in NSW at least) is conservation, not recreation." Not sure how I feel about this. Without knowing all the minutiae, surely a key objective of legistlation is appreciation of that conservation area, be it walking, paddling, caving, climbing?

Conservation is all about preserving something for the future. Does someone being able to see it make any difference? "If a tree falls in the forest and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

Recreation is catered for by State Recreation Areas and other legal entities.

Nat Parks are referred to often when quoting tourism, visitor and contribution to the economy etc. Have I missed something?

These are unauthorised extensions on the legislation.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Sun 10 May, 2020 3:56 pm

Heremeahappy1 wrote:'Except that the legislated purpose of national parks (in NSW at least) is conservation, not recreation." Not sure how I feel about this. Without knowing all the minutiae, surely a key objective of legistlation is appreciation of that conservation area, be it walking, paddling, caving, climbing? Nat Parks are referred to often when quoting tourism, visitor and contribution to the economy etc. Have I missed something?


Yes. You've missed that all the rest of the country is not only open for various types of human use, but that human use (and abuse) are their primary (and usually sole) permitted purpose. National Parks are, by definition, primarily for conservation and protection of landscapes and ecosystems. There have to be some places, somewhere, that are allowed to exist outside of some arbitrary monetary or economic anthropocentric "value" - ie, purely for themselves.

Gee the arrogance of the human species really gets up my nose sometimes . . .
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Sun 10 May, 2020 7:17 pm

Thanks for this. Not sure I've seen them, are there Nat Parks in Australia that are locked up for conservation purposes that can not be visited for some level of appreciation?Are World heritage and biosphere areas sought out to walk in? Is the answer to arrogance to close them to all public access?
So many national parks I've enjoyed and will continue to. Back on topic- get rid of the horses, oppose their equinocentric existence and conserve the environment.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Sun 10 May, 2020 9:12 pm

Heremeahappy1 wrote:Thanks for this. Not sure I've seen them, are there Nat Parks in Australia that are locked up for conservation purposes that can not be visited for some level of appreciation?


There are some with no road access and no walking track access. There are plenty of sections of NPs that are closed to human access entirely except for very limited scientific research by permit only. There are plenty of areas of our NPs where the only access is by long, hard off-track walking, which means minimal visitation.

Recreational use of NPs was always meant to be a side-effect of their establishment. That attitude has, unfortunately, been increasingly undermined by the neo-con belief that if you can't make money out of something, it shouldn't exist.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Sun 10 May, 2020 9:56 pm

NNW I'll certainly use the side-effect access for my anthropocentric needs. But locked up for conservation is locked up. Nat Parks are not locked up, are they?. Which ones, I ask again. I prefer no road and walking track access for walking, hunting and climbing, certainly limits use for some user groups though. In Vic the areas with greater restriction are water catchment, signs, fines and plenty of enforcement. WOJ and OLT, do whatever if you have money? Maybe it's time to stop pretending that legislation 'locks up' and protects areas of significance for future generations. The concept of land management has so many implications beyond my influence.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Warin » Sun 10 May, 2020 11:33 pm

Heremeahappy1 wrote:'Except that the legislated purpose of national parks (in NSW at least) is conservation, not recreation." Not sure how I feel about this.


Some time ago NSW had "State Recreation Areas" that were primarily for ... you guessed it, recreation. These have been incorporated into the NSW National Parks system... One of these areas was the "Lane Cove National Park" which was primarily intended for recreation. Conservation was a secondary objective.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Mon 11 May, 2020 12:22 pm

John Barrilaro looks to be on the way out.
He is the architect of the current brumby fiasco in KNP
Barrilaro is controlled by the previous state incumbent Peter Cochrane who has the horseriding concession for KNP.
I have heard that Peter Cochranes solicitor drafted the brumby preservation legislation.
More details on Barrilaro's demise here. I hope it comes to pass.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/par ... 54rl0.html
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Sun 17 May, 2020 11:02 pm

And some positive developments in Victoria
(Courtesy of Reclaim Kosci)
Parks Victoria wins federal court case!


Nature won last Friday when Australia's federal court dismissed heritage claims for feral horses in Victoria's Alpine National Park.

The Australian Brumby Alliance (ABA) took Parks Victoria to court, claiming the removal of feral horses would lower the heritage-listed values of the Alpine National Park.

However, Justice Michael O'Brien clearly spelt out that Parks Victoria is obliged by state, federal and international law to deal with feral animals in national parks and dismissed the heritage claims of the ABA.


Read the full judgement



Effective feral horse control in the Alpine National Park had been delayed for the last year and a half while the Federal Court made a decision.

This decision allows Parks Victoria to now continue to manage the park for the benefit of its natural and Indigenous heritage by fully implementing its feral horse management plan.

Parks Victoria can now resume its long-term trapping and rehoming program, now more urgent since the summer bushfires, and will introduce ground-shooting to control horses in high conservation areas.

More here if you are interested https://mailchi.mp/invasives.org.au/sta ... e8e914028f
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby GregG » Sun 17 May, 2020 11:53 pm

Very good news. Now for NSW.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Mon 18 May, 2020 12:29 am

GregG wrote:Very good news. Now for NSW.
Barilaro who was the problem in NSW, showed up teary eyed at a press conference and then got white-anted by News Corp! He's gone which is good but Kosi is so infested with Horse and Deer now... It's not going to be cheap to get it right again.

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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Mon 18 May, 2020 7:53 am

And ofc with the costs of dealing with COVID, there will be no money for frivolous stuff like removing feral animals....
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Mon 18 May, 2020 3:26 pm

Another small step forward. Two steps, withe the departure of Barilaro, although there's no guarantee his replacement will be an improvement.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby johnrs » Wed 10 Jun, 2020 9:32 am

Feral Horse removal in KNP,
yet another Barrilaro backflip,
some details here https://reclaimkosci.org.au/2020/06/04/ ... -backflip/
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Wed 10 Jun, 2020 9:50 am

johnrs wrote:Feral Horse removal in KNP,
yet another Barrilaro backflip,
some details here https://reclaimkosci.org.au/2020/06/04/ ... -backflip/


Giovanni "John" Barilaro hasn't uttered a truthful sentence during his whole political career. Someday I hope to see environmental saboteurs like him brought to justice for their crimes.

The pro feral horse movement keeps growing and growing but the anti feral movement can't ever seem to gain any momentum. If Reclaim Kosci want to be heard then they desperately need to change their approach.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby crollsurf » Wed 10 Jun, 2020 2:16 pm

Zapruda wrote:... Someday I hope to see environmental saboteurs like him brought to justice for their crimes. ...


An Order of Australia for the Environment would probably be a more likely outcome knowing the current state of politics.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby peregrinator » Wed 10 Jun, 2020 9:57 pm

Zapruda wrote:
johnrs wrote:Feral Horse removal in KNP,
yet another Barrilaro backflip,
some details here https://reclaimkosci.org.au/2020/06/04/ ... -backflip/


Giovanni "John" Barilaro hasn't uttered a truthful sentence during his whole political career. Someday I hope to see environmental saboteurs like him brought to justice for their crimes.

The pro feral horse movement keeps growing and growing but the anti feral movement can't ever seem to gain any momentum. If Reclaim Kosci want to be heard then they desperately need to change their approach.


Zapruda, in the interests of making some progress on this rather urgent matter, I ask these questions.

(1) What would you suggest can be useful ways to make that change of approach happen?

(2) As it is useful to "know thy enemy", what is the evidence for your opinion that "the pro feral horse movement keeps growing and growing"?
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 7:31 am

The pro feral horse groups are arguing among themselves with one particular group seeking to take main stage. This group known as Rural Resistance is led by a man called Phil Maguire who has a property adjoining the Alpine National Park and lost a cattle lease. He has a hatred for Parks which has now turned into a movement of over 22K people, mostly women who love horses, who are donating money directly to him to fight Parks in court. Their campaign revolves around whipping up a frenzy of emotions in its followers who think horses are the most loving and gentle animals on this earth. Mostly posting things which are blatantly false (not saying just a difference of opinion - just purely untrue). RR feeds on this emotional side and has gained some traction with people at the expense of others. Groups like this could be described as militant and many of the early posts which implied violent or illegal actions should be used in the WAR against Parks Vic have been pulled down.

These are not the sort of tactics which reasonable people use so it is difficult to combat with reason. These people on RR do not see any reason. Phil Maguire's tactics are also to bully anyone who opposes him with threats of legal action. This is how he bullied the media into not publishing a story which would have revealed another name allegedly used by him in the past. I would be at a loss to know how to combat this type of person. It would have to be a dirty political type fight.

I spoke with some friends the other day who live near Maguire and know him well. They were also concerned about the fate of the horses and did not want them shot. Most people cannot see the damage done. It needs to be explained in a way that makes it personal to them. I told them of how the peat bogs on Youngs tops hold water like a sponge and release it slowly into the feeder creeks of the Bundara river. The horses are destroying these bogs which take many years to repair and how it will contribute to future stream flow. When the river stops running during summer, who will people blame. Unless things are brought home to people in a way that will actually impact on their lives, they will not offer support. Maybe agree but not really commit. This is why the ACT is also so scared of what horses could do. It understand its water supply could be threatened.

The heritage these people claim had no concept of protecting the environment. It was all about making a living. Should we allow other so called heritage practises continue? Has anyone ever seen how gold was mined at Omeo? Visit the Oriental claims, which are historically recorded and a tourist attraction for that town, and you will see the landscape changed forever because of the use of what can only be described as water cannons to wash away the entire top soil. Nothing grows there except weeds. What about the historical value of clear fell logging. Trees which were well over a metre in diametre were felled in the tens of thousands. Now Vic Forests is lucky to get anything bigger than 40cm. There are two distinct groups of supporters for the horses. One are those who are fighting against Parks because of the loss of income and the others who just love horses. The heritage claim to the horses is just an excuse the same as 'grazing reduces blazing' to try and justify how they feel because those feeling have no merit in the debate.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 7:46 am

I think xplora covered point 2 far better than I ever could.

As for what can Reclaim Kosci do better? I’m really not sure, sadly. I think they are preaching to the converted when they really need to be bringing in all the fence sitters or people who never knew it was a problem to begin with.

Telling other scientists, environmentalists and nature lovers that ferals are bad is like telling a fisherman about fish. An echo chamber does nothing.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby north-north-west » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 8:21 am

Xplora has it. The defence of ferals is based on emotion. It's hard to fight unreasoning feelings with fact and science. People will cling to illogical attitudes all the more fiercely when faced with fact and logic that contradict them. (There is actually science that explains how this works.)
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 9:02 am

north-north-west wrote:Xplora has it. The defence of ferals is based on emotion. It's hard to fight unreasoning feelings with fact and science. People will cling to illogical attitudes all the more fiercely when faced with fact and logic that contradict them. (There is actually science that explains how this works.)
It is called confirmation bias, a subset of a larger field called cognitive bias. They find things more believable that agree with their pre-existing ideas than things that contradict them. Presenting facts that prove their beliefs wrong tends to reinforce those beliefs.

So no amount of information forced on them is going to change people's minds. They have to discover it themselves, as in the example Xplora gave. (There is probably also a bit of ego in this. They do not want to have to admit publicly that they are wrong. If they change their minds privately, they do not have this embarrassment. It does not mean they will go out campaigning for the other side though, but they might be less supportive of their previous belief.)
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 9:10 am

davidmorr wrote:There is probably also a bit of ego in this. They do not want to have to admit publicly that they are wrong. If they change their minds privately, they do not have this embarrassment. It does not mean they will go out campaigning for the other side though, but they might be less supportive of their previous belief.


Then let them down gently, saving face. Pictures may work - feral horses suffering. I saw this
http://australianbrumbyalliance.org.au/ ... nal-parks/
"Late today the Legislative Council in the Parliament of Victoria moved and passed a motion to cease the Labor Government and Parks Victoria’s policy of shooting Brumbies in our National Parks."
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby peregrinator » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 10:38 am

Zapruda wrote:I think xplora covered point 2 far better than I ever could.

As for what can Reclaim Kosci do better? I’m really not sure, sadly. I think they are preaching to the converted when they really need to be bringing in all the fence sitters or people who never knew it was a problem to begin with . . .


As you said, Xplora has mentioned some key matters. The claimed heritage issue in particular is in fact a very weak argument. It brings to mind the historic plundering of whales and seals. What charming industries they were. Mining also was and continues to be responsible for massive environmental damage and depletion of water resources. Here's a view expressed in an 1859 editorial in the Geelong Advertiser:

When all the other glories of a goldfield are departed, the sludge will remain as a monument, in perpetuo, of wasted energies and a false policy . . . the sludge is rolling down, like a lava tide . . .


That is from Sludge: disaster on Victoria's goldfields (2019) Susan Lawrence and Peter Davies.

Perhaps Reclaim Kosci needs to try to raise historical precedents such as these when discussing the feral hose issue. Yes, I made a typo there, but I let it stand given what Xplora wrote about mining in Omeo!
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby davidmorr » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 10:42 am

peregrinator wrote:Perhaps Reclaim Kosci needs to try to raise historical precedents such as these when discussing the feral hose issue. Yes, I made a typo there, but I let it stand given what Xplora wrote about mining in Omeo!
Also in Kiandra. Landscape permanently changed by sluicing. Has gradually grassed over in recent years.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Zapruda » Thu 11 Jun, 2020 10:45 am

Not when a fire tears through and reveals it all
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 12 Jun, 2020 6:57 am

I actually think we have struck on something just reading through these recent posts. Zapruda is spot on about getting the fence sitters to take a side. Forget trying to change the mind of the zealots or putting out more scientific info that people cannot relate to but ........ they can relate to images of all the other so called things which are claimed to have heritage but are now well recognised for the environmental destruction. Put images out of these thing first. People already oppose mining, whaling, logging and so on. Then post images of what horses are doing now and pose the question 'should we be supporting more of this?' People can then relate how destructive our heritage was and see a need to stop it from continuing. It can then relate back to the type of person who wants to keep this heritage. People who do not care about the destruction. It could also mean those supporting the horses may feel less inclined if they are placed in the same basket as whalers and miners.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Xplora » Fri 12 Jun, 2020 6:58 am

Maguire has now lodged an appeal which he says will succeed but has already briefed new counsel for a High Court appeal. Using other peoples money of course. When he needs more money he writes a sob story and threatens to leave the group. The go fund me money was too accountable for him and now he is getting people to send money directly to him. I have no sympathy for people who throw their money away like this.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby slparker » Fri 12 Jun, 2020 8:23 am

It's baffling to me.. I grew up in Tassy and National parks are generally regarded as areas where wilderness value trumps invasive species and commercial interests (if you discount a few dams, ski resorts and boutique accomodation, that is).

I now live in Vic and am pretty surprised that the culture here is (was) of grazing in National Parks - which did occur in highland Tasmania (i.e. WoJ) and still does in non-park areas. But there is less misty-eyed romanticism about farming in the mountains - maybe because brumbies were never a thing in Tassy (so far as I know).

I agree that Joe Public would be more likely swayed if there were clearer links to environmental destruction and feral horses.

Also thank you, Xplora and Zap for keeping us all abreast of these developments when they occur.
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Re: Horses and heritage

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 12 Jun, 2020 9:17 am

Xplora wrote:I actually think we have struck on something just reading through these recent posts ... The go fund me money was too accountable for him and now he is getting people to send money directly to him. I have no sympathy for people who throw their money away like this.


Agree. The extreme elements will not change, so attempting to make others supporting him see the truth has merit. Sending money direct to him is unreal.
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