Electric vehicles

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Electric vehicles

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 10:50 am

There's a move towards phasing out petrol and diesel vehicle and having electric vehicles (EVs). EVs can work in places where there are short journeys and the opportunity to recharge, probably overnight for most people. On longer journeys such as a weekend away this may not be possible. Also, destinations may be at or beyond the limit of 5-600 kilometres return. The cost of EVs is going down, but they are still expensive. Hybrids may be an answer, or people may keep their current vehicles.

Will there be a problem with EVs in a bushwalking context?
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby north-north-west » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 12:37 pm

In some areas, there will be fuel limit issues. I've seen fast charging stations at Derwent Bridge and in Devonport; maps show at least 40 in Tas. We're small enough that current range limits on newer EVs are pretty well sufficient.

I think confidence is going to be a bigger factor in the take-up than actual vehicle limitations. It's easy to bung a jerry or two of fuel in the car. Would hate to think what sort of solar charger would be needed to top up if you misjudged your distances.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby ChrisJHC » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 1:04 pm

Given that we live in inner-city Melbourne, our plan is to look at a small EV for around the city and keeping an ICE for trips.

I think it will be a while before EVs can completely replace ICEs, however hopefully this will happen when the battery technology improves sufficiently.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby commando » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 3:30 pm

It will be interesting to watch 200 vehicles trying to charge from 3 outlets.
Its not like petrol fill and go in 3 minutes charging takes at least an hour i hope you like to read novels
I will be part of the resistance and use a postie bike if i have to.
preparedness is a state of mind.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby CBee » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 3:46 pm

More vehicles will result in more charging facilities.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 4:33 pm

Might it be possible to charge the vehicle while having a meal or a break? In rough figures, range 500 kilometres, charge for 30 minutes means 250 kilometres added. If the service station power fails it could be interesting.

On longer trips I always have one or two 10 litre tins of fuel, allowing the return journey to be done without adding fuel from a service station. I attempt to keep the tank half full or more, buying on days when the price is low. This is a good resource, and the graph is instructive. https://petrolspy.com.au/map/latlng/-33 ... /151.20733
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby peregrinator » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 5:47 pm

Yes, I've found your link very useful. But given that on this occasion it transported me to Sydney, I was amazed at how much more useful it appears to be in NSW than in Victoria. Prices are updated in a matter of minutes north of the Murray, while south of the border I know that updates are often not made for a day or more. Especially for regional outlets, where it may be a week before a report is made.

At first I thought the discrepancy might be due to the fact that I was scanning prices heading down the Humourless Highway, a busy route. Then checked some obscure locations and saw the same divergence.

Another oddity about NSW prices is that many seem to be lower in the country than in the capital. The reverse is usually true in Vic.

I might have to do as commando suggests and get a bike again. Might need one with an electric motor if pedalling up the Hume.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby TentPeg » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 6:38 pm

I have a factory gas-only vehicle with a range of 500+KMs. It takes a bit of extra planning for longer trips but it's not a deal breaker. Same would apply for a fast charge EV.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Walk_fat boy_walk » Mon 19 Apr, 2021 8:02 pm

It won't tow your trailer. It's not going to tow your boat. It's not going to get you out to your favourite camping spot with your family.
- Scotty from marketing circa 2020

No wonder we're lagging the rest of the world by so much. The range and capability for EVs to access remote areas might not be there yet, but it will be eventually. Attitudes are holding it back more than technology.


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Electric vehicles

Postby GPSGuided » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 8:42 am

Through last year’s pandemic period, thought carefully of this issue and I’ve rejected the idea of a hybrid or plug-in hybrid as the next car. The next will be a full EV with 500-600+km in range.

After thinking and looking at how the German industry is transitioning through Plug-in Hybrids, it dawned on me it was not about technology nor consumers but to give a transition period to its massive ICE manufacturing supply chain. To us owners, it’ll be an even heavier car with both batteries as well as an ICE that still requires the annual service and expenses, while both the ICE and EV components of the hybrid are weaklings in their respective technologies. In contrast, a full EV needs no annual service, very little brake wear, full instant torque and can have a range going beyond 600km. That’s more than enough for my needs, even bushwalks when paired with supercharging stations that can boost to 80% in 30mins whilst on a coffee and washroom break on a long journey. Then for that once a year or less really special trips, can always rent an ICE 4WD for the duration. In the meantime, the energy cost of an EV is around half of liquid fuel for ICE. The only downside of EV is the upfront cost, ouch!

PS. Opt for dual motor, effectively AWD for even greater safety and torque power on rough roads surfaces.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Biggles » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 9:05 am

Range anxiety continues to play on the mindset of potential buyers and lookers of EVs. An average of 500 to 600km does not cut it when I can obtain 1,200km from a full tank of PULP98 in a VF SS-V commodore wagon. Who are manufacturers trying to hoodwink? I get around locally with an Australian-made MEARTH electric scooter (top speed 70km/h, recharges in 5 hours), or by mountain bike. I will see around 8 EVs (Teslas) each day, mostly repeat appearances, including at least two disturbingly large Tesla SUVs; one can only speculate how much those monsters weigh! The further north and remotely one heads in Queensland, the much less likely you will find EVs and more likely Isuzu D-Max, Landcruisers and others built for remote big hauling or exploring. Never ever seen an EV with a tow bar (or sufficient luggage capacity!) so questions remain how people are going to carry their weekend camping gear with 4 bikes on the back as is so common everywhere during the holidays. Is the market aimed at mums and dads doing their daily Woolies shop?

Nobody in our family will be moving anywhere near EVs in the near future; simply, the whole EV idea is conflicted from the get-go, and especially not suited to the vast distances that are routinely covered by Australians. The infrastructure to support EVs — recharging stations, is pitiful at this time. Consider that a 550-600km range would leave you stranded on some places of the Pilbara or Gascoyne coats in WA, or anything north of Cairns in QLD. Personally, we'll continue to use the time-honoured and proven fuel-efficient cars and leave EVs to the geeks.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Nuts » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 10:16 am

I've used my e bike a couple of times to access the wilds :) (one short walk shuffle and a rafting shuffle). Around 25klm and 45klm. Not being a regular rider (and with dodgy knees that mean seated pedaling only) I wouldn't consider this without the EV boost. Leave it chained to a tree! Great for the right use.

It could be argued that Australia has every reason to be at the forefront of EV, especially range development. Without a car industry we are at the mercy of a world market that won't wait for whingers.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 12:41 pm

Interesting to watch the rise of hydrogen vehicles. Australia exporting the first ship of Hydrogen to Japan mid-2021. Still grey- hydrogen using coal for production and with no real demonstrated success with CCS, still not carbon neutral. Need an entire hydrogen market to ensure supply chain diversity to bring down costs can't do it on cars alone.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby CBee » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 1:16 pm

Origin has some investment for solar panels to produce hydrogen, so pretty clean. Also, looks like some australian scientist came up with an efficient panel that splits H2O in the same unit, being again more efficient. Obviously not as efficient as burning coal.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby tastrax » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 2:56 pm

There is actually a lot more infrastructure that non EV folks are not aware of and the apps are getting much better at helping with route calculations etc.

https://www.plugshare.com/
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

Yes, there are still gaps, especially for early low range cars, but its getting much better at a fairly rapid pace. I know my next town car will be an EV whilst my touring car may take a while to convert as I tend to go well off the regular travel routes with that...at the moment.

PlugShare.PNG
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 20 Apr, 2021 3:11 pm

I want to see something better in power generating clear glass so that the windows, windscreen and roof can be generating electricity as you drive and while parked.
As I understand it, torque to pull a caravan or trailer isn't a problem nor is traction if you use 4 wheel engines rather tan a central engine, but everything is a trade-off that reduces range.
Perhaps the future will see a new paradigm of electric vehicles using hydrogen fuel cells in combination with battery packs. Hydrogen could be a very clean fuel if produced using wind and solar power
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Electric vehicles

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 22 Apr, 2021 7:40 am

For all the sceptics on EV torque and pulling capabilities. Even better on dual motor.

https://youtu.be/5bOMd4lXUgQ
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby tastrax » Thu 22 Apr, 2021 9:36 am

There is some work happening with solar integration into vehicles but far from mainstream as yet. Range anxiety is still quite prolific for 'touring' but for many urban dwellers the current cars available have more than enough range for daily travel.

https://sonomotors.com/

https://www.aptera.us/
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Warin » Thu 22 Apr, 2021 9:41 am

Lophophaps wrote: If the service station power fails it could be interesting.


I don't think petrol pumps work without power....
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby tastrax » Thu 22 Apr, 2021 9:43 am

The killer with hydrogen is the filling stations. Super expensive to build. Even in the US where there are already hydrogen vehicles the infrastructure has limited the uptake of such vehicles.

https://azgreenmagazine.com/how-many-hy ... st?fuel=HY

https://azgreenmagazine.com/hydrogen-fu ... -and-cons/
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Tortoise » Thu 22 Apr, 2021 9:53 am

Pardon the ignorance, but I wonder... With various discussions I've seen and heard re EVs, there's been no mention of the issue of where all the extra power is going to come from when there is a major uptake of EVs. Was it just 2 or 3 summers ago that Tassie employed diesel generators because there wasn't enough rainfall for hydro production for current needs, and Basslink was down for months so we couldn't import electricity from the mainland?

Any thoughts?
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby tastrax » Thu 22 Apr, 2021 10:00 am

New high speed 350 kilowatt charge stations will be able to give an electric vehicle 200 kilometres range in only eight minutes. It will take you longer than that to grab a coffee and go to the loo!

In my case I have just installed extra solar so I now have a surplus that should cover an electric vehicle. In Tassie I suspect that is why they want all the extra wind power projects (some of which I dont agree with)
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby climberman » Fri 23 Apr, 2021 7:46 pm

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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby climberman » Fri 23 Apr, 2021 7:52 pm

Lophophaps wrote:
Will there be a problem with EVs in a bushwalking context?


No.

Market will expand, charging availability will further expand, range will expand.

Have a look At Cahrlie Boreman and Euan McGregor in Long Way Up - Patagonia to Los Angeles on electric Harleys, supported by Rivian test vehicles.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby climberman » Fri 23 Apr, 2021 7:53 pm

Biggles wrote: Consider that a 550-600km range would leave you stranded on some places of the Pilbara or Gascoyne coats in WA, or anything north of Cairns in QLD. Personally, we'll continue to use the time-honoured and proven fuel-efficient cars and leave EVs to the geeks.


This is a small part of the vehicle and traveller market.

In 15 years that's what the market will be.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby climberman » Fri 23 Apr, 2021 7:57 pm

Tortoise wrote:Pardon the ignorance, but I wonder... With various discussions I've seen and heard re EVs, there's been no mention of the issue of where all the extra power is going to come from when there is a major uptake of EVs. Was it just 2 or 3 summers ago that Tassie employed diesel generators because there wasn't enough rainfall for hydro production for current needs, and Basslink was down for months so we couldn't import electricity from the mainland?

Any thoughts?


More power will be fine.

if Tassie had the second interconnector they would have imported power from the NEM. The single Vic-Tas interconnect was down (and they had made a decision to export power to Vic at quite the profit for some years in the leadup to the issue).
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Son of a Beach » Mon 26 Apr, 2021 9:05 am

Tortoise wrote:Pardon the ignorance, but I wonder... With various discussions I've seen and heard re EVs, there's been no mention of the issue of where all the extra power is going to come from when there is a major uptake of EVs. Was it just 2 or 3 summers ago that Tassie employed diesel generators because there wasn't enough rainfall for hydro production for current needs, and Basslink was down for months so we couldn't import electricity from the mainland?

Any thoughts?


Could happen again if they continue to manage our resources poorly. They exported huge amounts of electricity interstate and ran our dams down dangerously low. This would not have happened if they'd prioritised energy security for Tasmanians (which is supposed to be what they do) and stopped exporting electricity to the mainland before the dams started getting low.

Additionally, EVs use significantly less power than ICEVs. A huge amount of the energy from petrol gets wasted when it is burnt in a car's engine. An electric motor has much less power wastage.

Having said all that... yes, there is still some potential for the problem you mentioned, if the infrastructure is not ready for the change.
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Re: Electric vehicles

Postby Heremeahappy1 » Sun 16 May, 2021 10:39 am

Interesting article - Hyundai Nexo hydrogen fuel cell car breaks record. Refuelling takes 3-5 mins. Limited refuelling infrastructure in Australia, no sovereign component manufacturing supply chain and slow development of green hydrogen production are holding back public support. I won't start on lack of significant Govt interest.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hydr ... 61183.html
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