Vine pruning tools.

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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 9:21 am

Very well put fatcanyoner. Exactly why this is a big deal/concern.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby Warin » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 9:42 am

ILUVSWTAS wrote:And what's your point warin?


I was adding to Johns comment on noxious weeds ...
If you are going to cut something because you think it is a weed, be certain it is a weed and then be aware cutting it is not enough to kill it.

As for legalities of doing things not on your own property, I'll leave that for personal consideration and situation.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby north-north-west » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 9:46 am

FatCanyoner wrote:2) Modifying nature to make it more convenient for us is what humans have done to 95% of the earth's landmass. It's the reason there are so few wild places left. Paths, roads, farms, etc, etc, have all replaced nature to make things convenient for humans. It's important that we protect what remains. Sometimes that means putting up with some inconvenience. I'm sure no one on this forum wants to see the further loss of natural areas, but it can be a slippery slope. If it's okay to cut away vines, then why not add steps, or build huts, or roads, or anything else that makes our enjoyment of the bush easier? Drawing a line in the sand about minor issues may seem pedantic, but it's about ensuring a consistent argument that prevents more damaging actions from taking place.

3) Less experienced people don't always understand the nuance. For instance, the debate here might be over snipping the odd lawyer vine, but they may see that as acceptance of any vegetation clearing. There was a situation a couple years ago where some quite experienced canyoners decided to create some new abseil routes in Blue Mountains National Park. This group not only bolted their routes, but they took a saw with them to clear vegetation that got in the way. I have seen photos of what they removed, and it included chopping down small trees with a diametre of about 15cms. It was completely illegal, and very damaging. But for many people, understanding exactly where the boundary is between snipping the odd plant, and clearing entire inconvenient trees, can be difficult. The last thing any of us would want would be to encourage the latter behaviour. I think that's why some people reacted so strongly to this thread.


An excellent comment.
And, in a related digression, this is why some of us react strongly to mentions of campfires in FSOAs. It's not about nitpicking, and it's not that no-one creates some sort of impact when they're out bush; it's about trying to ensure a degree of consistency, in both behaviour and attitude, especially amongst those who are perceived as being more knowledgable and/or experienced. This sort of behaviour creates the wrong impression with the young, the inexperienced, the newcomers. And thus the problems perpetuate.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby CraigVIC » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 11:58 am

The world's in bad shape but there's a lot more than 5% true wilderness left.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby johnw » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 12:03 pm

FatCanyoner wrote:there are native members of the Rubus genus (the same family as blackberries). They can be just as spikey and form thickets.

We might need a separate discussion on weeds. They seem to crop up frequently (pun intended) in a variety of topics since the 2019/20 fires.
There are ways to differentiate native Rubus (e.g. R. parvifolius, R. hillii) from weedy R. fruticosus spp. agg. but it isn't always straightforward.
Correct identification can often take more than one pair of trained eyes. Compounded by the fact that the weed species can sometimes hybridise with the native ones.
Note: My comments are specific to Blue Mountains NSW, but may apply elsewhere.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 12:24 pm

CraigVIC wrote:The world's in bad shape but there's a lot more than 5% true wilderness left.



Since the re-definination of wilderness was done I dispute that.
Whatever the figure is it's rapidly reducing through forest, mining and tourism. Another good reason to respect and care for what's left in any and EVERY way we can.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby CBee » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 3:37 pm

He could have asked about tools to cut vines in his backyard, get plenty of infos, links and prices, done and dusted no problemo. And then sneak into the bush with the clippers. But instead... :-)
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby wildwanderer » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 4:30 pm

CBee wrote:He could have asked about tools to cut vines in his backyard, get plenty of infos, links and prices, done and dusted no problemo. And then sneak into the bush with the clippers. But instead... :-)


Actually it's turned into a good discussion. :)
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby CBee » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 5:01 pm

Indeed.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby Biggles » Thu 01 Jul, 2021 7:17 pm

Yes. A cut above the usual chatter... ✂️
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby tom_brennan » Fri 02 Jul, 2021 5:13 pm

15 years ago I would have a lot more righteous about a post like this. Yes, perhaps it's not the best question for a public bushwalking forum, though it's created some good discussion.

These days I'm more "shades of grey". In the whole scheme of things, a couple of snips of lawyer vine is probably less damaging to the bush than pushing through, and pulling down all of the surrounding shrubs and vines as well. And I've pushed through a lot of scrub, including plenty of lawyer vine.

I do appreciate the 'slippery slope' argument - there are some lines in the sand that need to be drawn. I'm not sure this is one.

There's obviously a big push by various state governments to build new accommodation in our national parks - now that is definitely the "thin end of the wedge".
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby Hughmac » Sun 04 Jul, 2021 6:27 pm

Just to be a devil's advocate here, one of my favourite local tracks in Morton NP is now completely impassable due to regrowth from last year's fires. Should this track (which is over 100 years old, with significant cultural and natural features) be cleared again, or allowed to return to nature? Clearing a path down it will require removal of significant numbers of native plants.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 04 Jul, 2021 9:51 pm

It's a human problem that we like black and white answers when most problems are shades of grey.
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby wildwanderer » Mon 05 Jul, 2021 7:56 am

Hughmac wrote:Just to be a devil's advocate here, one of my favourite local tracks in Morton NP is now completely impassable due to regrowth from last year's fires. Should this track (which is over 100 years old, with significant cultural and natural features) be cleared again, or allowed to return to nature? Clearing a path down it will require removal of significant numbers of native plants.

I would chat to the local NPWS about it. In the past bushwalking groups and other groups have worked with NPWS to organise working bees to reopen tracks of the type you describe.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby Lophophaps » Mon 05 Jul, 2021 8:09 am

Hughmac wrote:Just to be a devil's advocate here, one of my favourite local tracks in Morton NP is now completely impassable due to regrowth from last year's fires. Should this track (which is over 100 years old, with significant cultural and natural features) be cleared again, or allowed to return to nature?


There used to be a 4WD track in Kosciuszko NP from south of Pretty Plain Hut east over Strumbo to near Grey Mare Hut. This track now has heavy slow regrowth for about two kilometres, limiting access to experienced fit people. Pretty Plain Hut was rebuilt at some expense but has very few visitors, in part due to the lack of a track going to Strumbo. While not in the same category as the Morton NP track, it's similar. Also, would it be better to have traffic on one track rather than spread out, arguably causing less damage to vegetation?
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby johnw » Wed 07 Jul, 2021 2:28 pm

tom_brennan wrote:These days I'm more "shades of grey". In the whole scheme of things, a couple of snips of lawyer vine is probably less damaging to the bush than pushing through, and pulling down all of the surrounding shrubs and vines as well. And I've pushed through a lot of scrub, including plenty of lawyer vine.

This is exactly the scenario that came to mind when I read the OP's description. I've been faced with this more times than I care to remember in a remote bushcare situation.
Snipping a few lawyer vines will do infinitely less damage in my experience. In fact our footfall causes more harm regardless of any other issues.

tom_brennan wrote:There's obviously a big push by various state governments to build new accommodation in our national parks - now that is definitely the "thin end of the wedge".

This is what we should be worried terrified about in my view.

Lophophaps wrote:There used to be a 4WD track in Kosciuszko NP from south of Pretty Plain Hut east over Strumbo to near Grey Mare Hut. This track now has heavy slow regrowth for about two kilometres, limiting access to experienced fit people. Pretty Plain Hut was rebuilt at some expense but has very few visitors, in part due to the lack of a track going to Strumbo. While not in the same category as the Morton NP track, it's similar. Also, would it be better to have traffic on one track rather than spread out, arguably causing less damage to vegetation?

I would think it depends on the nature of the landscape involved. Above the tree line amongst slow growing, sensitive alpine veg people should spread out where no track exists.
If there is a track then everyone should use it. In your example I'm guessing it's likely better to confine all traffic to a single track should it be renewed.
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Re: Vine pruning tools.

Postby Nuts » Fri 09 Jul, 2021 12:24 pm

If it's just to snip the odd grabbing vine a sharp knife cut? My serrated tramontina kitchen knife could saw through any vine :)


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